Friendships & ADHD: Ghosting, Awkwardness and More with Social Skills Expert Caroline Maguire #217
Ever feel like making friends is a puzzle you can't quite solve?
You're not alone, mama!
In this episode of Motherhood in ADHD, we unpack the nuances of friendship with our guest Caroline Maguire.
Caroline is a leader in social skills development and the author of the book, “Why Will No One Play With Me?” – a handbook on how to communicate social skills training for your kids…and yourself!
If you’ve ever felt like your ADHD impacts how you make and keep friends, this episode is for you.
We're talking about those oops-did-I-say-too-much moments and the I-have-no-idea-what-to-say ones.
Caroline answers questions from listeners like:
What do I do when I’ve been ghosted?
How do I reach out when I’ve been distant due to my ADHD?
How should I approach talking to my friends, co-workers or bosses about how my ADHD affects my communication style?
How do I help my kids have successful friendships without pushing them too hard?
Our relationships shape our lives – but they’re not easy when you have ADHD. So let’s dig in and figure it out together.
What’s your ADHD Parenting Style? Find out at patriciasung.com/quiz, because you’re not your average mama bear!
Looking for a quiet fidget to help keep you and your kids peaceful when life feels uncomfortable?
Calm strips are the way to go! Touch, scratch or trace the textured surface to regulate restless energy, increase focus, and remind yourself to breathe.
Head over to CalmStrips.com and use the code MOTHERHOOD20 for 20% off orders of $20 or more.
Caroline Maguire 00:00
We get so excited Pick Me Pick Me without giving ourselves the credit or feeling the confidence to know. I may have zinged with that person on the bus and we may have had a great conversation. But it turns out, they're kind of toxic.
Patricia Sung 00:18
Are you overwhelmed by motherhood and barely keeping your head above water? Are you confused and frustrated by how all the other moms make it look so easy. You can't figure out how to manage the chaos in your mind, your home or your family? I get you mama. Parenting with ADHD is hard. Here is your permission slip to let go of the Pinterest worthy visions of organization and structure fit for everyone else. Let's do life like our brains do life creatively, lovingly and with all our might. When we embrace who we are and how our brains work, we can figure out how to live our lives successfully, and in turn, lead our families well, at the end of the day, we just want to be good moms. but spoiler alert, you are already a great mom. ADHD does not mean you're doomed to be a hot mess mama, you can rewrite your story from shame spiral to success story. And I'll be right here beside you to cheer you on. Welcome to Motherhood in ADHD.
Patricia Sung 01:24
Hey there successful mama. Today, we're talking about friendship. Specifically, how do we deal with friendship struggles when we have ADHD? And how do we talk about it with our kids? Today, I am interviewing Caroline Maguire, who is the author of Why Will No One Play With Me. It is a handbook on how to communicate social skills trainings with your kids and honestly, to ourselves too. Caroline has a background in social skills development. She has developed multiple training methodologies on how do we develop our critical social, emotional behavioral skills so that we can build our friendships and feel successful doing it. Today we're diving into like, Why do we feel so awkward? And when we feel really awkward about like being a friend? How are we going to teach our kids how to be good friends? We dive into both sides of the ADHD coin. Sometimes we were like, I don't know what to say. Or sometimes you're like I definitely said too much. We answer your questions about like, what do we do when people ghost us? Or how do we talk to friends about having ADHD? Or how do we reconnect?
Patricia Sung 02:34
If we haven't talked to somebody in a while we feel like maybe we ghost to them. Caroline also gives some really great advice on how do we address these are tough behaviors with our kids, when we see they're going down in flames. So we want to help them but they also do not want to hear anything that we have to say, how can we have those tough conversations without hurting their feelings, but also still helping them be kind friends and learn these skills that we need to function not just as kids but as adults, in our relationships across the board in families, friendships, work, relationships, having these skills of friendship and building relationships are key to so many pieces of our lives. So let's welcome Caroline Maguire to the show. How's it going this morning?
Caroline Maguire 03:20
I am having a fabulous day because I'm spending my day in areas of high interest to which fuels our brain. So that's
Patricia Sung 03:28
it, okay, well, can you just give us like the mini version of your diagnosis story, like when you found out and kind of how you worked through knowing that given whatever age you are along the way, so we can just get that perspective of where you're coming from on this whole ADHD journey.
Caroline Maguire 03:47
So I was diagnosed at age 12. My learning disabilities had not been remediated. And when I was diagnosed, they told my parents, you know, she's dyslexic. It's really late in the game get on this, but they told them that since I was a girl, I would outgrow the ADHD. So my parents very dutifully, and at tremendous expense and sacrifice did get me help from my learning disabilities, but they didn't get me help from my ADHD. My mother waited patiently thinking that I would outgrow this. And then in the late 90s, Dr. Ned Halliwell book Driven to Distraction came out and my mother went to see him speak. And she would start sort of, I don't want to use the word pester but she would say I am not sure. I think that you're so disorganized, etc.
Caroline Maguire 04:39
But it really wasn't until I was 25 that I really found out. I was in a ballroom, I worked for a company that was launching a drug called Concerta and I was in marketing and I was like, hearing all of the education and the speakers and I was like, Oh, I do that. I do that. That's me. And And I ran upstairs and I called my mom and I said, Don't I have that ADHD thing? And she said, Yes, you do. So some of my journey really began when I was 25. And I started getting help, and I started seeking resources. And you know, yes, we knew, but really, if physicians tell you not to pay attention to something you really don't. And the only people I knew who had ADHD, so this is early 90s, right? Yes, we're very hyperactive. And so I didn't think it applied to me. But I will say, for anyone out there, I always say they're sort of pre finding out Caroline, and post. And I am incredibly different, because I have found those compensatory strategies for my ADHD. And because I work with my brain. And so when I say I'm having a high interest day, like, that's important to me, and I don't do certain things that are low interest to me, I found them out.
Patricia Sung 05:56
I'm like, Oh, do I want to go down that rabbit hole right now?
Caroline Maguire 06:00
You don't have to?
Patricia Sung 06:01
I know, it's so hard when I'm doing interviews. I'm like that that is not the topic today, Patricia, but I could have a conversation about that. So let me back up. I was diagnosed when I was a freshman in college, I was 18. And quite often people will say like, Oh, I wish I had known especially with you know, most women now are getting diagnosed in their 30s and 40s. And they'll say, Oh, I would you know, if only I had known, you know, 20 years ago. And I'm like, Oh, yes. And no, it's like, Yes, I knew, but like, there just wasn't the resources, like I got diagnosed in 2000. So it's like, there really wasn't the resources available, then it was like I knew, but it's nothing compared to what we know now. And I'm like, Oh, well, yeah, even though I knew 2000, Patricia really could have used these strategies and tools that we didn't have back then. So I always like to tell moms like Oh, yes. And also, it was just different, you know, 2030 years ago, and how they were saying, Oh, don't worry, you'll grow out of it.
Caroline Maguire 06:58
I mean, I think the distinction is when I started being an ADHD coach 15 or 16 years ago, to 2005, I'm probably not wrong on my math, I have a whole thing on my website, what is ADHD? What is ADHD coaching? I don't have that. Now, I don't have to explain to people that there's this thing called coaching, and then it's really effective, and it's the gold standard, and then it's part of the treatment protocol. I'm sure that in certain areas, certain countries, I would still have that. But I think that's a huge difference. I used to rehearse a spiel to explain to people what this was, I don't really have to do that anymore. People still are desperate for coaching. And for resources, do not get me wrong. We do not have enough. But they're like, Oh, I've heard of that thing. I need it. Yeah,
Patricia Sung 07:54
very much. So when you look at having ADHD as a mom, what do you think, are some of the areas that you really excel in, because of your ADHD?
Caroline Maguire 08:05
I think because of my ADHD, and because of my background, I am really good at the let's talk about how you feel. And let's explore your strengths and what you're about. I'm good at that talking piece of parenting. I'm good at that. Like, my son came home from camp yesterday, and he didn't want to wear the camp t shirt. And I'm really good at that. Like, why not? You know, how come? What how do you feel about that camp t shirt. And I'm also open to the idea that there are people in the world who don't get you and that sometimes we have to let it go. And I think that's a major thing when you're raising a neurodivergent kid that they you know, a lot of parents try to talk you into liking people or talk you into. Oh, I'm sure the teacher isn't saying that. That's super prejudiced. I am really good at that. I guess that probably is how they feel. How do we cope with this? Yeah,
Patricia Sung 09:10
I think when you have dealt with it, your little red flags go off. And you sit there you're like, Oh, well, that you that is possible. Because most will be like oh, we're gonna but never say that. You're like me when when it that is possible. So they bent like the empathy and the intuition to be like, Okay, well, what if that did happen? How would we deal with that is a really important skill for not only for us to have but our kids to watch and know that it's okay, to question
Caroline Maguirre 09:39
and I think I'm naturally because of my ADHD a creative thinker. I had a boss who used to say I see the forest through the trees, you know, the real phrase. And I think I'm not a parent who says, Oh, that's not boring. I'm like, wow, like my daughter's reading this article on fracking. And it was like, the most boring things ever read and like fracking, and that whole thing for science is actually like really interesting. But they had made it really boring. I'm not the parent who says no, no, really, this is interesting. I was like, oh my god, this is dollars ditch water? Why have they taken this super interesting topic and made it this way? What do we do to get you through this? You know, I'm not the person who pretends stuff has value. I'm like, Okay, we got to do it. What do we do? And I think that comes from that ADHD lens. And that experience that I've had as a person, you know, who like could barely stay awake in our history class. Not that if you love our history, I'm not like for it. But for me, I could barely stay awake. I could not focus I couldn't think in so I guess I know that, you know, when if kids come to you, I'm not like, oh, it's super interesting.
Patricia Sung 10:52
And I think it's also okay to say like, this concept is really cool. This method we're doing it in could be better. Again, I'm totally, I'm totally off topic here. But when you think about when we hear other people be like, Oh, no, it's really interesting. I think that's what lends us to this lens of not trusting our intuition, and not trusting the little notes inside of us that are telling us like, wow, this is a really boring article, when other people are like, Oh, no, no, it's, it's great. It's you just, you know, look at this, it's so cool. And we're just gonna go and do it. It's like trying to convince you otherwise, like, I know, as parents asked him to, we're thinking, like, we're trying to help our kids get through this hard thing. But instead, we're telling our kids like, your perception of this is incorrect. This is actually very interesting topic. And I feel like that's like part of the roots of where we start to lose our connection with ourselves. Yeah, I
Caroline Maguire 11:40
think that parents have a fear picture. And I think the reason I'm successful with parents is I validate that fear picture and the fear picture, I understand, because I am Irish, I'm from Boston, my grandfather would have said, You got to tough it out, you got to make things happen, you got to work hard. So I understand the fear picture of there are things you have to do in life, there just are. And I think I validate that fear picture and parents like, oh, my gosh, my kid is not going to be able to do anything, they have to be able to tough things out.
Caroline Maguire 12:11
But what I try to do is to say to them, if we acknowledge the interest, and if we understand that interest is our fuel, and interest is what allows us to focus and interest is so paramount to us. We are not saying you don't have to file your taxes, right, we are saying we have to do it in our own unique way. And I'm validating for you that you as a parent are afraid that, you know, this kid is never going to do the things they need to do in life. And I'm telling you that there's a secret way forward. And the secret way forward is to use creative brain based solutions. So I think that's part of it. And then I think as a parent myself, and as an ADHD ear, I'm always thinking like, what is it that I would have wanted someone to give me, you know, instead of just saying suck it up, use willpower, because willpower is a finite resource. I can give you willpower for this, but then it's gone for something else.
Patricia Sung 13:10
I think that that fear is what drives so many of our parenting decisions. And it's valid. I mean, we want our kids to do well, we want them to be successful, we want to know that they're okay. You know, we default to these things. Like you said, my grandparents are the same thing, have it out, it's everything's fine. They're also, you know, Irish and Eastern European types. And like you just keep on going. And when those are the only tools in our toolbox we have, we use them. And when we meet people like you who are like, Okay, I got some more tools for you, then we can recognize our fear and say, Yes, this is true, I am worried about my kid, I want them to be happy. I want them to have friends. And what we've been doing isn't working. So what are some other tools we can gather? And that can feel so like there's so much relief in that as a parent to know that you can still keep your kids safe and help them be a great person. And that there are tools out there available that will make sense for the job that you're doing.
Caroline Maguire 14:10
Right. And there's almost a contrast and this that like, there's a level of trust, where I'm asking you to trust me that I can do things as a person with ADHD. I need you to trust me that I will get it done. I will just get it done my own way, versus the way that maybe traditional people have been doing it. And that's kind of my whole shtick with the social skill. I'm not trying to get ADHD people to be social in a neurotypical way. We tried that for hundreds of years, right. And I'm not trying to ask them to mask or pretend that we don't have these traits or pretend that we're going to be 100% either. Let me just lay down, no one stops monologuing and never monologues again. Right? We get up tomorrow and we He tried to do it differently. But what we can do is use our own unique gifts, to be social and to learn social skills and to be out there making friends, it will look different. And the way we get there will be different. There's a leap of faith in that. And we have to understand our brain and understand that we are different. Yeah.
Patricia Sung 15:21
I think a lot of the struggle, especially for moms who are listening to us today, who also have ADHD, it's like, I want to help my kids make friends. And yet I am also very awkward and don't know how to make friends. So where do we start when we want to teach things that we are not good at ourselves? What do we do? Please help me help. I'm an introvert, please help.
Caroline Maguire 15:42
So first of all, I love this question, because this is a question I get a lot. And I'm actually working on my next book. And this is like a sidebar, right? Like, this is something we have to address. First off, we are social models. And so I think it is important for us to first acknowledge that. And I also think our own friendship struggles without being inappropriate, obviously, can be something we talk about with our kids, we can take the journey with them to some extent. And I think some of the most powerful conversations I've ever witnessed, have been where a parent says to their kid in my office, I have always struggled. And I would have done better in my career better in my life, there was no path forward, no one told me how to do things differently. I didn't know how, and I don't want you to have those struggles, I don't think you have to suddenly show up as a different version of yourself. I think you can model this act of saying this is what it meant for me. And this is where I struggle. And you can start to embrace trying to make some efforts and trying to embrace change. That doesn't mean you become some different person who's Ultra social, if you're an introvert, or you're an inattentive, or you're, you know, it means you're saying we're all trying to work on something. Yeah, when
Patricia Sung 17:11
I look at, like, for context, my husband is neurotypical and extremely extroverted. My youngest is a carbon copy of his extroverted pneus. Either one of them can talk to a wall, they will strike up a conversation anywhere, and it's so easy for them. And then my oldest has more of my social skills where I worry about like, Oh, am I bothering them? I don't know what to tell them. Like, I'm the kind of person who's like, I am at a restaurant and I only have a fork and I need a spoon. And I'm like, Oh, you don't want about it? Yeah, it's really good. And the same thing, my oldest would be like, you ask him first. But when I'm like us, and there's my five year old going, can we have a spare? Let me like, it's quite hilarious. So in those places where we want to speak up, and we're not sure what to say? Or where to start, what are some of the first things we can do to start creating change? They're set with me, they're selfish to me, when we're just like, I don't know how to talk to people. What do I do when we say?
Caroline Maguire 18:11
So? I love this question, too, because I think it's something that we all as parents struggle with, whatever the scale is, right? Like, where do I start? So here's one of the things I heard that I love. We all have bias. There's like 79 biases or something, we all have bias. And we all have default programming. And I think one of the things that you start with is to know your default programming, which is for you that you don't necessarily speak up when you need a spoon. For me, it's that I'm too polite. I'm too polite. I'm not bold enough, I sometimes don't self advocate enough in a totally different way. But I know that about myself. And they think that's like a really big first step. I think the second step is using some of the stuff and while no play with me and using some of the stuff I have on my website, carolinemaguireauthor.com. I have tons of free stuff. I have scripts.
Caroline Maguire 19:06
I love having a script of like, in this situation, here's the three questions I can ask. In this situation. Here's the stuff I can tell myself. I'm not bothering them. I deserve to have a spoon. I should have been given a spoon to begin with, like whatever it is just sort of say, when I don't have a spoon, I'm going to get up and I'm going to say, hey, I need a spoon. When I'm chatting with someone and I feel awkward. And I'm not sure what to say. I'm going to ask them How was your day? Right? I'm going to say to them, what are you doing for the summer, you know, whatever it is that you need, so that in those scenarios which kind of occur again and again and again, you're going to have steps that you take, because that's what you're really looking for is like what do I do in this scenario? And I think if you have that knowledge jumpier default mode, which is I sit here without a spoon, or I don't talk to the person next to me or a don't say hi to someone, and this is something I provide all over is like, what are the first steps that I take? That's what I'm all about is like, what do you do first? Second? Third? Because if you have that, then you can go do it in theory. Yeah.
Patricia Sung 20:20
I think a lot of times with ADHD, we get so caught up in our head, or we feel so overwhelmed with the situation that the vague advice is like, well just ask them a question. And you're like, but what do I ask that, right? And so we don't have a tangible thing to do. And it feels like for us, when we don't have a clear picture of what that looks like, vague instructions are just as terrible as having no instructions. I don't know what to do. So if we've got three things that we can pull from, even if you only remember one of them, you have like this sturdy thing to grab on to have like, Okay, I know that for the next two months, I can ask anybody, like, how is fill in the blank season that you're in? How is your summer? How's your back to school? How are your holidays? Like? That is an easy go to question of how is the fill in the blank, seasonal thing going on? And that, for me feels way more sturdy than people are like, well just talk to them. I'm like, Oh,
Caroline Maguire 21:13
well, and I think what you're bringing up is one of mine comes to one of my number one hacks, which is to have a job or an excuse to talk to someone. So if you are, you know, the bartender at the barbecue, if you are running the grill, if you are in a church group, if you were a kid and you work the yearbook, you have a reason to talk to people. That's an excuse and a role that's clearly defined. And you don't have to reinvent the wheel or figure out why you're talking to people, you're given an already made excuse. And the other thing that you're bringing up for me is that yes, the vague advice doesn't help us. It's why I exist. Because I used to when I was working at the Halliwell center, I wanted to help people beyond just academic skills. I was running all these social skills groups, and I would read and read and read and all that advice was so big, and it drove me bonkers.
Caroline Maguire 22:07
Because I was like, This is too vague. And I tried using the advice of people and they would say exactly what you're saying. They would be like, but what do I ask, What do I do first? I was just working with a college students on this who's had a summer program where he was like, Okay, I know three different groups of people. When I arrived, I get what you're saying. I go and I talked to those three groups of people. How long do I stay? What do I say when I get there? We need that advice. Otherwise, it's exactly what you're saying. If people are like, What do I do? I
Patricia Sung 22:41
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Patricia Sung 23:29
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Caroline Maguire 24:06
So one of my biggest pieces of advice around the oversharing because when you're nervous, you need something to cling to, you can't remember everything. So I do entire courses on how to stop oversharing. But this is my biggest thing. Who are you talking to? Right? And what do they need to know? We have different levels of intimacy and trust with different people. What happens is we with ADHD forget and so I barely know you, but I share my life story, my social security number, every relationship I've ever had my financial history, right? We all fall into this. But when I'm talking to someone, I'm not always present enough to think, oh, gosh, I'm doing this. So part of this and this applies for the advice I just gave you too is to have a mission and to be working on one thing. So You're working on asking for the spoon saying something, people who share too much information.
Caroline Maguire 25:06
Yeah, there may be a myriad other things that are going on. I wouldn't try working on everything at once I would work on when I'm talking to someone thinking, Who are they? What's my relationship with them? In other words, what's my level of intimacy? Do I know them? Do I know their last name, if you don't know their last name? Don't? And then trying to trying to think, as you talk, what do they need to know? Like, why am I sharing this information with them. And I have many, many other steps to this, but I think like to be present, and to be thinking about that is like a huge leap forward. And that could take you months and months and months to work on. And it's very hard for us, we have to sort of work on one thing at a time sometimes, because otherwise, we feel so bombarded that
Patricia Sung 25:58
actually, that was one of the things that I was like my biggest aha moments from when you were talking at the ADG conference last year is you had the question, I don't remember exactly what the visual look like. But I can like, see, in my head, I was like, Oh, like this person is like, I barely know them. So like, this is the kind of relationship I should have with them. This is the like acquaintance versus friend versus like, best friend. And you have this chart that explained like this different levels, and like what kind of information goes to them. And I was like, Oh, this is so helpful to see very clearly because we generally do much better with visual representations when we have ADHD is having some kind of like analogy or like physical thing to attach to it.
Patricia Sung 26:38
So we can kind of save it in our brain. So it's like, being able to see like, Oh, these people on the friendship stack the different levels, it's like, this is the kind of information they would get. And that clarity of like, when you see like this person you barely know. And like all of my relationship trauma, it was like, clearly they don't go together. But to be able to see in that picture was like this is where like the disconnect comes is that we share this information or we expect to have this like really intimate conversation with somebody who like you would give the example of like, you know, the person you see at the coffee shop, right? Even if you see them, like even understand the difference between like that person, you saw one time at the coffee shop versus the barista you talk to every time you go, even they were two different levels of people. And I was like, Oh, this makes so much more sense that.
Caroline Maguire 27:27
Well, and I've, and I've been doing a lot of work with Jessica McCain, because I've been helping her write the friendship chapter of her book. And one of the things we came up with is like, we do this thing as ADHD years to where we I meet someone, I click with them, I like them, right? So what do we do, we want to instantly be their best friend. Because I don't really like small talk, I don't really want to talk about the weather. And I really want to build a friendship, I want you to be my bestie now, right? But we have to step back. Because what we also do is we assign them, like friend, that is we say I'm meeting a friend for coffee. No, you're meeting someone you just met for coffee, that helps us remember what we should share and not share. It also helps us to feel less bad. So let's say that person canceled on us now we feel to hearable know, someone you just met canceled on you, they weren't really a friend, they didn't really let you down. Right? That all those nuances are really important for us. And I think we also have to remember that neuro typicals are thinking that we build stuff that we build a friendship that we build those levels of intimacy and trust. So if we jump right to, I'm going to tell you my social security number, the neurotypical is like, whoa, right. And so we have to remember that because we love to be closer. That's our go to and our brain like I do it. I'm totally guilty of this.
Caroline Maguire 29:03
By the way, I'm totally guilty of meeting someone and thinking, oh my gosh, we really clicked and then thinking, Oh, the friend canceled on me. And I think it's a distinction that's really important because our kids do it too. And so when your kid says to you, someone disappointed them and they tell you all this stuff. One of the important things to do is ask for clarity, how well do you know them? How much time do you spend with them, not to belittle or demean their experience. They're upset and they're allowed to be, but also to help them refrain because they're also doing it. We're doing it as adults, and they're doing it as kids.
Patricia Sung 29:40
When your child that was like, Oh, I think this has to do with like our struggle and prioritization of like, we don't see the level of that level of intimacy with the different kinds of friendships. To us. It's just friend all lumped together. But a lot of times we would use the friend for the person I saw one time at the coffee shop that I said, I see you there too. borrow at 10. And that same friend label we applied to, like, you know, the person we've known since third grade. So like, that's hard for us to see the different layers unless we've stepped back and gone. Okay, well, how do how well do I know this person, but I, you know, all I have is their phone number and I don't know their last name. So.
Caroline Magurre 30:17
And I also think it goes back to the emotional stuff that we feel we feel things so intensely. And I think sometimes we're looking for people to give us information and help that they may not be ready to give us. And so I think it's a prioritization, I think it's executive function, I think it's that the we feel things so strongly, I almost feel like, it's like a rom com, you know, where the girl or the boy feels like I just met the person I'm gonna marry sometimes with friends, I feel like I just met someone who I really click with, and I don't click with everybody. So this is really good potential, and I get so excited. But I don't know that neurotypical feel the same way. And so they may not feel like I just met the one. Right? We may be right, we may have just met someone who really thinks with us, but we have to remember that they don't necessarily see things the same way, and that they are going to be scared off when we start telling them about our history of childhood trauma. You know, on the first meetings, it's super hard. I don't want anyone to think like, oh, Caroline was saying, this is all easy to modulate. It's not, there's a lot of self talk that goes into it. Like,
Patricia Sung 31:34
Oh, before I jump on the self talk, one of the things that I also was thinking about when you were talking about that is a lot of times because people with ADHD dive headfirst into a friendship when you then meet another person with ADHD that dives headfirst into the relationship that sometimes we think that like, Oh, this is how it's supposed to be. So sometimes we get that positive feedback that we can dive headfirst. And all of a sudden, you know, we were riding on the bus and had a whole like childhood trauma conversation with the person next to us. And like, clearly, we are connected and soulmate friends, because both of us have ADHD and dove right in. But like that's not how most people function. So it's like, you got this positive feedback that like it worked in this one, like situation, but it doesn't work in most of them. And I wonder if that's like confusing
Caroline MaguIre 32:20
for us as well. Oh, yeah. Right, like, so it's absolutely that scenario of hell happened to me habits. My clients happen to meet people who write me emails, and we get that positive feedback. The other thing that happens to us though, is, it was so great talking about person on the bus, and we got this sudden feedback and whatever, except they may not be good for you. And we don't always think I get to choose, right. So I'm not really good with all these dating apps and all these friendship apps as much. Because of my dyslexia, I tend to say, swipe right or swipe left, and I'm wrong. But we tend to think like, Oh, yay, someone picked me, they swiped to me, I'll just use that instead of left and right. So my kids will hear and be like you said the wrong way. But like, we get so excited, Pick Me Pick Me without giving ourselves the credit or feeling the confidence to know, I may have zinged with that person on the bus. And we may have had a great conversation. But it turns out, they're kind of toxic, and they are not necessarily good for me. And I get to choose people who are good for me.
Caroline Maguirre 33:34
And I get to have friends who love me as much as I should be loved. So when I was doing research for that presentation, and others, one of the things I found that I think is really important to say is that when we overshare bashfully in the teenage years, we make ourselves vulnerable, because now that person has a bunch of information about us that they shouldn't necessarily have, because we haven't built up trust with them. And so think about diabolical Mean Girls who could do stuff with that information. But it also means as an adult, like, I've given off myself, and I don't necessarily know if that person deserves my trust, or if they're going to be good to me. So it's something I care about because I want people with ADHD of all ages to know that we deserve to be treated well. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I've been I've that
Patricia Sung 34:35
one really hit home of like, knowing that your level of vulnerability matches the level of trust, right, you have with that person, and that's how you know you're safe, right? Safer. I mean, obviously, it's never 100% but safer with that person when you have that level of, of trust with them.
Caroline Maguire 34:53
And they think to know something that we don't know either because our parents are ADHD and they didn't model it for us, which is true. Trust is earned. And we deserve to see that that person earned our trust. So the reason I care about working on oversharing isn't just because we're embarrassed and we get to self regulation hangover, and we feel bad and all of that it is, but it's also because I deserve to have you earned my trust. And for me to say, let me see what you do with this little bit of information before I share a lot of information. And it's not easy, please, everyone listening? No, I know that this that's why I have it laid out in a multi step process on my website. It's not easy. Well,
Patricia Sung 35:38
I think that goes right into one of the questions that one of the moms in my Facebook group asked. Liz says, How do we cope when people ghost us?
Caroline Maguire 35:48
Yeah. So first, I want to normalize something that I think is like in normal and sad. I read some stats that like most of us will be ghosted in our life. So I want to say that because a lot of times I think we think it's me, and it's only me, and I'm the only person in you know who has been that's not true. It's a growing trend. And I think there are various reasons for it. But you know, just know that I have this in a blog laid out more cogently. But what I would say is, if someone goes to you, and you've written to them and asked like, Hey, can we talk about what happened? Or you know that you know, why the relationship has fallen apart, I would let them go in peace. And I would start to do the grieving work to let go of that relationship. Do I like ghosting? Not at all I think it's incredibly wimpy.
Caroline Maguire 36:41
I work with teenagers every day to say that's not how we're going to handle this, we're going to have a real conversation about it. But I know it happens a lot. And I think what we as add ears tend to do is rewrite 49 text trying to explain what we did what we said our position and doesn't change anything, it just adds to our negative feeling. If someone seems to be ghosting you, I also wouldn't jump to assuming that it's ghosting. I know I don't always text people back. Right? So I would start with a very generic like, hey, haven't heard from you? Right? We'd love to connect and see what they do with it. That's the other thing I find with people with ADHD. We have a very scarcity mindset sometimes. So we go like someone is like, I've been away the past two weeks. So I have a ton of text I haven't returned. And I have literally a list going. If you assumed that I didn't text you back and then you go into, I don't know what happened. Carolina. I don't know what that is what we tend to do. I would try to stay away from that. Right? Because that makes things worse. If you've asked them, and they haven't responded, if you know because you had a conversation about it, or they told you, I would try to start that grieving process.
Patricia Sung 38:04
Hey there, Mama, I've got something fun for you. Who doesn't love a quiz? I want to know which mama animal are you because you're not your average Mama Bear. You have a magical ADHD brain that puts a sprinkle of brilliance on everything you do. Sure, you may have forgotten that laundry in the washer for the third time. But what are your strengths? What makes your ADHD parenting style unique to you? How do you use that sparkle to bless your family? So which mama animal are you find out by taking the quiz? What's your ADHD mama parenting style because you're not your average Mama Bear, head on over to Patriciasung.com/quiz and find out and then when you do I want you to post your results on social media. So we can see that your hashtag, not your average Mama Bear along with the hashtag, I'm a mama and then fill in the animal that you get. Again, that's Patriciasung.com/quiz. And I can't wait to see what you get. So tag me at @motherhoodinADHD. So on the flip side of that Rumina asked how do we reconnect with friends that we haven't spoken to for years. So she gives the example of like between the pandemic and she's a new mom and she's on maternity leave. When there's been that big gap, how do we reconnect? And a lot of times we'll have that guilty feeling like we ghosted them because of whatever circumstances happened? Oh, absolutely.
Caroline Maguire 39:26
This is one of the things I always say that I think we as add or benefit from is giving a little explanation of who we are the people. I know sometimes I don't text you back. I'm so sorry. Know that I adore you. I am terrible at communicating whatever it is, just so people have that in their way. I mean, I had a professional contact where that's literally what they said to me. They're like, here's the person's information. Just know they're terrible at writing back. It's not you it's not that you will eventually won't meet it. so helpful to give that context. So that's tip a tip be interest to me is always the way to get back into people's lives, either by texting them something, you know, I saw this and I thought of you. And you know, I am sorry, I've been so terrible between pandemic, new baby and whatever, you know, I've been saying, or by joining something where you know that person will be so you have that regular routine, you're going to see them going forward, and being able to reconnect with them that way, and reaching out to people. And just being transparent. I've been terrible. I miss you. You know, I've been thinking of you. I'd love to have coffee.
Patricia Sung 40:42
And the summit, because actually one of the other questions in the Facebook group was like, how do we bring up having ADHD to friends? How do you explain how you are and how you function to those people who are important, especially for people that have known you a long time? How can you explain those kinds of things without it being a lot of hurt feelings. And
Caroline Maguire 41:03
I'll give a couple of ways because back in the day, what we do is talk about traits because people didn't want to be out. And they didn't want to say their ADHD diagnosis. So they would say to their boss, the way my brain works is this, I tend to be a person who needs deadlines, right. And I still think that if you don't want to use the word ADHD, that is a great way to go is to talk about traits. I am a person whose attention drifts off, I am a person who forgets to text back the way my brain works, I do so much better if we have a regular meeting setup is to tell them those traits. And then for people who've known you a long time, I would tend to say, well, you remember how I work. This is what I've discovered, I work best when I do this, or I am best when I have it set up this way. And to sort of say what your brain does well, and how you operate. And you can tell them ADHD label or not, right? People are getting to be more educated, they're not educated, but they're a little more educated to know that there are certain traits we have. So if you say the ADHD label, if you're like, I have ADHD, I'm not great at texting back. People are starting to get it and to sort of know that part of it.
Patricia Sung 42:19
And that's to say like similar advice I give like when people are asked, What do I do about work, I say the same thing with the good and you tell your boss like, I really struggle with verbal instructions. So I'm going to send you an email after we talked to make sure I didn't forget anything, or I take things to heart. So you know, if something's not going well, can you let me know gently like I want to fix it. But my feelings get hurt easily or something like that. Like you can say things in a way that are not I have rejections since I took the toodles for you. Like you can just say, I work better this way or I do you know things in this manner, so that you don't have to be out and about with it if you don't want to. So I think it just transfers well to all relationships.
Caroline Maguire 42:55
Yeah. And I think it's great for us to do that as parents so that our kids can do it. One of the greatest things I heard the other day was someone said, when you give me feedback, I am hearing it and I am processing it. But I need a few beats. So I'm often going to just understand and hear and then I'm going to come back to you in another conversation to really processed it and discuss it. And I thought that what I loved about that was it also explained the brain and explained our processing style. It also, you know, one of the things that gets us in trouble is that people don't think we're hearing them when they don't feel validated. And you know, many, many times teachers will say to me, I really want to be there for so and so. But when I tell him or her acts, they don't react. They don't say anything we don't understand. They don't say yeah, I need to do better with homework, whatever. And I'm like, well, they're a kid, and they're probably overwhelmed and not processing. But just by saying and having that skill in life to say, Hey, this is how I work. I'm hearing you, but I'm gonna have to come back a think it. It allows people to feel like okay, they got what I'm saying. But you don't necessarily have to commit in that moment to going over anything. And I think for rejection sensitivity. That's a great way to because I might not be able to talk about whatever right now.
Patricia Sung 44:20
Yeah, like that's fine. And actually my husband I had the conversation yesterday of he was telling me things like I had a rough day because I forgot to take my medicine. I didn't realize it until I went to bed. And so it's middle of pillbox with the medicine still in there. I was like, Oh, no wonder today was the word. And he was like, I keep telling you things and you don't say anything. And I was like, Oh, I didn't realize that I was just absorbing it and processing it. And I wasn't actually saying anything. So it looks like I'm ignoring him. So yes, of course he's irritated. But for me to know, oh, when he's saying these things like I basically like you said earlier you need to have a catchphrase of like earlier we had to like oh, how was your day or what? You know, what are you doing for your summer? In that place? I need to have a catchphrase of Oh, Okay, I hear you and I need to think about it, or like whatever you come up with, it doesn't have to be that. But like, I need something to say in response to that. He knows I heard him. But also, I have time to think about it before I continue forward.
Caroline Maguire 45:11
Yeah, I think that that's really important, especially because we all process information differently. And I think that there's an assumption in the world that like everyone processes the same. And sometimes I can't process what you're seeing right now, or I can't remember it if you don't send me an email. And I think having like that little phrase that you have in your back pocket to just say, I'm hearing you, but I'm processing it, it makes people feel better. And it allows us the space we need, but yeah, I'm the opposite. I start getting anxious about what you're saying, you know, my husband's like, trying to tell me and I like get anxious. And he's like, I'm just telling you like, in general, we need the H back in this house cleaned. And I'm like, okay, because I can't take out this week.
Patricia Sung 45:56
Yeah, so the good, like you said, having that base awareness of what your default is going to be, allows you to choose the tools that are going to make sense for you in those situations, like, Ooh, man, I have so many more questions on here. But I'll do one more. And then we'll, we'll wrap up. The last one I wanted to touch on as you were saying, when our kids are struggling with something, and we know that giving them this feedback is going to hurt their feelings. Like when you can see the reason that their friend is mad at them is because they did blah, blah, blah, how do we talk to them in a way, we're, we're not hurting their feelings, and we are helping them and we're still getting that point across and balancing that fine line of helping them be a better person, but also not crushing them at the same time.
Caroline Maguire 46:38
Yeah, no, I think that's a great question. So one of the skills that I'm going to be adding to my social spy tool for the next book is something called investigating. And I think being curious and coming from curiosity and investigating things, is a really great skill for many things in life. And so with our kids, if I say you know that that person is not the right friend for you, and they treat you like dirt, so like, this is really not a surprise, or you are too much for them. And therefore, yeah, you were talking over them, you were abrasive and they're they're reacting, we don't get through to them, because not only are we crushing their soul, but think about anything, anyone tells you in that manner, you don't tend to absorb it, you don't tend to hear it. So the biggest thing I would say that any scenario this applies is to be curious and investigative and to help the child witness.
Caroline Maguire 47:42
So you're never going to say you're abrasive, and you drive friends away. What you're going to ask them is, what did the friend say? What happened before? What is it that goes on for you? And you're going to be very curious and tenuous, because it takes a number of conversations to help them witness what they do. Right? And so this is a short little conversation. This is not a big epic conversation. And in the short conversations, it's like, well, what's your style? Right? How do you show up? How the other people show up? Think about this friend, what did they like, right? Are they a person who likes people who are more bold? Or are they a person who kind of retreats, right? Using those kinds of objective things, it will help them eventually see their style, and what they're doing. But it allows them to have the awakening, this is a really annoying, tough part. I talk about this on Instagram a lot and I get a lot of feedback about it. But like I still stand firm on it, you have to allow them to come to the realization if a friend tells them that is like so wonderful, even if it's painful, because then they're getting the feedback and you can discuss the feedback. But you as a parent don't want to be the person who says to them, you're abrasive because what happens is now there's distance between us, I don't want to trust you.
Caroline Maguire 49:15
I don't want to share with you, I don't want to be with you, right and that parent child relationship, that ability to talk about tough stuff is the most important thing you have, right? I want that more than I want them to have the realization. So everything is about like what are the social norms here? What was going on here? What did you say? How did you say it right is a great way like well, I set it like this, but I didn't mean it. Okay, but you did say it like that. There's also times by the way where no matter what you do, they don't see it. And here's my other hack coaches, teachers, uncle's on friends who can have conversations with them and how have those discussions so that you don't have it? Right? Someone can go fishing with them and sit down and be like giving them that talk. And then it's coming from someone else, and they're going to take it better.
Patricia Sung 50:13
No, that's really good advice. And I think we often want to solve the problem right now. So knowing that it is going to take multiple conversations over multiple days, possibly weeks, possibly months to help them get to the point where they can see it, like going and doing this is not a, I'm going to solve this in the next. Oh, look, 45 minutes. This is something that takes time to allow them to get there. It's a very good reminder, because we want to fix the problem for them right now.
Caroline Maguire 50:38
It's so painful, like, let me just validate everyone who is out there going. Caroline, I heard you say this on Instagram, I wanted to tell you, I don't like this advice. I totally understand that. I'm telling you. My experience for however many 18 years of doing this, is that it's so much more powerful. Think of anything you witnessed yourself versus someone tells you right? Why do I know that I'm a person who could run out of gas? Because I experienced it? Right? And so I know when it hits a quarter of a tank, I'm like nutso about it. I'm like, get the gas, right. Yeah. So I want them to witness it. Because I want them to kind of start to know, versus you tell them maybe they even take steps but they can't really have meaningful change, because they don't believe it. And now they're mad at you, on
Patricia Sung 51:33
top of it on top of it. Yeah. I mean, it's almost like you go back to when they're too and you tell them like don't do that you're gonna fall, you can say that till you're blue in the face until they actually fall. They're like, oh, probably shouldn't stand on that. That learn unfortunately, like that's the like, one of it is one of the hardest parts about parenting is watching your kids fail or figure the problem out themselves when you know what the answer is. But that is like, you know, being a human and learning how to how to human. Well,
Caroline Maguire 51:58
and you're also you are guiding them, you are a shepherd, right? You're taking them to the place where they learn that they fall, you're helping them we're not just letting them learn on their own. So they're they're 45 on they finally realized that seeing things in the Super abrasive manner, makes people not want to be friends with you. Right, let me just say that. But what we're also not doing is pouncing. Right. So every parent out there, you can relate to this, right? And I have to hold myself back as a parent to your kid does something or maybe they even admit to you. I'm too abrasive. And you're like, yes, yes, you will. This is the problem. You do this all the time, right? We pry like, the door opens, and we're like, wow.
Caroline Maguire 52:41
And it's because we're frustrated. We're afraid we have all these things. What I'm saying to you is when the door opens, and they say so and so said that I never text back. And they're done. Because like, they feel like I don't even care about them. Instead of pouncing and being like, See, I told you, you have to communicate with people in life. Baba, Baba, bah, right? I'm saying step back and say, Wow, that's really hard. Empathize. What was that like? And then let's do an analysis. What is this person telling you? And what are they feeling? And like, let's explore how we could help you be a little better about getting back to people. Right? That feels very different than Yeah, I told you a million times. Right? It's so different. Yeah.
Patricia Sung 53:29
No, I love that. That analogy of the shepherd, like how they're just kind of like guiding the sheep along. And I say, What's, where are you located?
Caroline Maguire 53:38
I'm outside of Boston. Oh, right. Okay,
Patricia Sung 53:40
so I'm in Texas, and I am not a Texan. By birth, I have moved here with her. And they do all the rodeos. And there's a really funny event called the calf scramble, where basically they just let a bunch of caps loose. Say there's like 15 calves and there's like 45 kids, and the kids have to catch a calf and drag it into this chuck circle in the middle and they win a scholarship for their FFA. And it is hilarious. Because you've ever watched a 15 year old try to drag a calf across the arena. Like it's virtually impossible to drag this calf. But yet, if you can just push them along in the right direction. But like even you can't push, it's like you're literally guiding because at any point you want to shove that animal. It's like nope, same right here. And that visual was like, Ah, this is what I'm doing with my kids is that I can't push like it's a no contact sport. I can't push. I can't drag. It's just like, like, gentle. Like, what if we went a little more this way? Okay, let's go a little more to the left so that they can arrive there on their own. And pinch. It's
Caroline Maguire 54:39
hard. Yeah. No, it's so hard. And it is kind of a goat rodeo, right? Like it's crazy and they're everywhere. But I want you to have that intimacy with them. Because if you have that trust and they trust, they can talk to you. They're going to talk to you more and one of the totally developmentally appropriate characteristics of Teenagers is that they fare in little snippets. And they don't tend to come and tell you everything at once. And if they do, they're trusting you in that moment and how you react really matters. And so, you know, right, you can see very clearly, you're wasting tons of time on tick tock, I can see you're doing this. But when they admit it to you, how you react matters, so that they'll admit other things in the future. And so that's why I'm like, Don't pounce, because I want them to admit the next thing. And
Patricia Sung 55:37
I think goes back to what you were saying earlier about having that level of trust match the vulnerability is that when they trust you, they will be more vulnerable. And if they come in with a little bit of vulnerability, and you lose the trust, then you don't get more vulnerability. So like it goes in your relationship with them just as much as Yeah.
Caroline Maguire 55:57
Yeah, that's a great analogy. I love that. And the sort of, you have to match them a little bit in terms of their energy. And I always say, you know, I guess some people don't remember being teenagers don't remember being kids. But I have vivid memory of it. Like, I've never lost that feeling. So if you can remember, as parents, remember, like, when you would admit something to your parents, and they would lecture you how annoyed you were and how you were just like, Yeah, I just told you I know, right? And to this day, by the way, my parents lecture me about stuff. And I'm like, I'm 48. So I'm kind of okay, now, you know, when I think whenever you remember that, it helps us to remember what it felt like and why then my deflector shields went up. And I was just like, I'm not telling you anything anymore.
Patricia Sung 56:44
Okay, so for the moms who want more help with friendship, both for themselves and helping their kids, where can they find you? Where do they go? Okay, so
Caroline Maguire 56:52
on Instagram and social media, it's @authorcarolinem. And if you just Google while no play with me, you'll get all of this, by the way. And then for my website, it's carolinemaguireauthor.com. I have tons of free stuff. My blogs are like books. They're really comprehensive. And they're very step by step. I'm very, like, here's 123, what you can do, because like you said, sometimes you're like, What do I do if I want that spoon?
Patricia Sung 57:18
Yeah. And I also want to point out that you wrote a lot of books, and a lot of blogs with dyslexia, which is like, round of applause kind of role model for kids who are struggling with that as well, like this is possible. Like, this doesn't have to be a lifelong struggle in the way of like, I hate all reading and writing forever. There are so
Caroline Maguire 57:37
well, and I listened to a ton of things, I listened to books, I listened to podcasts. And I would also say, I want to be transparent. And I tell kids this all the time, I always have a copy editor, I always have someone reading my stuff. I always have someone helping me with the organization. And I'm very transparent about that. Because I think we need to be one of my cousin's is the opposite of me. He is a graduate of Middlebury Breadloaf school, he's like a really good writer, and he doesn't have dyslexia. And I was all feeling bad about that years ago.
Caroline Maguire 58:10
And I felt like a fraud. It was like imposter syndrome. And he said, I don't know a subject matter expert who can write as well as people who just write for a living. And he was like, I don't know why this is a thing for you. But you know, and it was really helpful for me. And so I'm really transparent to people that like, you know, I just did an article for attitude magazine. I wrote it. And then I had a copy editor helped me and say, like, this is not how this is spelled in any place. Because I want people to realize that you can do these things. And you may need some help. And that's okay. That doesn't make you less than it makes you needing that help. Yeah.
Patricia Sung 58:56
And that applies, like being a mom, too. You don't have to do all the things yourself. You can
Caroline Maguire 59:01
No, no. Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing I would say to moms with ADHD out there is that there's a lot of societal pressure. And there's a lot of pressure, where people comment on stuff. So here I'm going out all my things. I don't cook, I reheat. I'm not a good cook, and I'm not interested. So I'm not doing it. I had my groceries delivered long before the pandemic. I don't intend to go back this UPS strike scares me terribly. You know, all those things are based on my brain, my interest, and people do comment. People will say like, I can't believe you don't, whatever. And you get to a point where you just start to go, they don't understand.
Patricia Sung 59:42
Yeah, especially for people with ADHD. Like how many wonderful things can you be doing that change the world that are better than the grocery
Caroline Maguire 59:50
store? Yeah. And it's, it's one of those experiences that makes me like angry, grouchy, unhappy. Me, too. It's like walking in the rain. Like I don't need to.
Patricia Sung 1:00:04
Okay, so as we wrap up, here's the lightning round questions, all you have to do is just fill in the blank, you don't have to explain anything. Number one, the best thing that I've read or listened to recently is the
Caroline Maguire 1:00:13
body keeps score. It's a really old one, but it's really good.
Patricia Sung 1:00:18
That's good back. Okay, number two, my most boring about me fact is, I guess I'm an only child. Number three, when I'm having a rough day may go to quote, Song poem, book, podcast activity, whatever it is. I
Caroline Maguire 1:00:33
watch movies about Winston Churchill. And I lay in a chair and bed, and I want to quit or not do anything anymore. And then by the end, I'm like, I have to have to be brave, and I have to fight on the beach, fight in the streets, whatever. And I and I go and I do it. And I have a dog called Sherlock and I had a dog called Winston before so I'm very into all this.
Patricia Sung 1:00:58
Okay, number four. Don't tell anyone I,
Caroline Maguire 1:01:01
I love shopping. I love shopping like Poshmark and stuff. It's like a total dopamine rush.
Patricia Sung 1:01:09
Number five, if I had a magic fairy one for one spell, I would, I
Caroline Maguire 1:01:13
would make things easier for kids. And I would give them friends. Number
Patricia Sung 1:01:18
six, my best piece of advice for mamas with ADHD is
Caroline Maguire 1:01:23
do what you need to do and what is best for your family. And think they know not what they say. They know not what they do, so that you can ignore people. Well, thank
Patricia Sung 1:01:35
you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. It's a really encouraging conversation for us to know that we can have these great relationships. And it is possible to learn the skills so that we can feel confident when we're talking to new people and building those and creating that village that we need, especially as moms. Thank you.
Caroline Maguire 1:01:54
Well, thank you, I I can't do it alone. So I would ask everyone like come to my Instagram and tell me what you need. I will make it for you if you tell me what you need. Awesome.
Patricia Sung 1:02:09
take you up on that. Thank you. Okay. For more resources, classes and community head over to my website motherhoodinadhd.com.